US Route 89 Travel Guide

Once I completed my US Route 89 series on YouTube, I received a lot of requests to make a travel guide.  In attempting to do a video, I realized it was going to be too long to include everything I think is important, so I decided to do a written version instead.  FYI - I am not a professional travel agent!  This is just the organized thoughts of a guy who is passionate about traveling!

To view my state-by-state detailed YouTube video series go here: US Route 89 Playlist

Overview:  It is approximately 1800 miles (2900 km) from the Canadian border to the Mexican border on US Route 89.  You will go through Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Utah, and Arizona.  I stayed in a combination of classic hotels and Air BnB’s, averaging around $80/night.  It is very expensive around the national parks so make sure to try and book rooms in those areas early.  Before the trip I purchased the National Park Annual Pass for $80 and it helped me save around $100.

Beginning of trip note:  I did the route from north to south and to get to the Canadian border is not the most convenient or cost-effective part of the trip.  I traveled by plane from Kansas and the best deal for me was to fly into Spokane, Washington, and drive 6 hours east to start the trip.  The reason I did this was because it was over $1000 cheaper to rent a vehicle from Spokane as compared to the other nearest airports closest to the beginning of the route.  It was also a less expensive plane ticket for me.  So if price is a consideration, check out all the options before booking your flight.  Also, the hotels are expensive near the beginning of the route because it is close to Glacier National Park.  I stayed in an Air BnB in the tiny town of Dupuyer, MT, for $80.  I got up the first morning and drove 82 miles north to the border to start the trip.

My trip took 10 days (not including a couple side trips), and I did each day with the following routes:

Day 1 – Canadian Border to GreatFalls, MT – 171 miles (+82 miles at the beginning as mentioned above)

Day 2 – Great Falls, MT to Livingston, MT – 170 miles

Day 3 – Livingston, MT to Smoot, WY – 283 miles

Day 4 – Smoot, WY to Ogden, UT – 156 miles

Day 5 – Ogden, UT to Salina, UT – 185 miles

Day 6 – Salina, UT to Kanab, UT – 163 miles

Day 7 – Kanab, UT to Flagstaff, AZ – 202 miles

Day 8 – Flagstaff, AZ to Wickenburg, AZ – 155 miles

Day 9 – Wickenburg, AZ to Tucson, AZ – 197 miles

Day 10 – Tucson, AZ to Nogales, AZ/Mexico – 83 miles

Day-by-day travel with 39 must-sees and 15 side trip options:

Note: I consider “must-sees” things right along US 89 and “side trips” things that will take you at least 5 miles off US 89 to explore.

Day 1 – CanadianBorder to Great Falls, MT – 171 miles (+82)

YouTube video link

Like I mentioned above, I started in Dupuyer and drove 82 miles to the Canadian border to get started.  There are a lot of terrific small towns in this very rural part of the trip, as well as some great scenic driving.  The first of 7 national parks you can visit is right at the beginning – Waterton Lakes National Park.  I have never been there so I can’t comment on how good it is (I assume it is fantastic like most national parks).  Not far past that in Browning is the east entrance to Glacier National Park – SIDE TRIP #1.  You can take the Going-to-the-Sun Road for some of the most spectacular views of the parks.  You can spend days or even weeks in Glacier NP.  The rest of the day is full of some very small and quirky towns.  Make sure to watch my Montana video to see some places to look for.  I ended the day in Great Falls at the Midtown Motel for $75.

Day 2 – Great Falls, MT to Livingston, MT – 170 miles

I felt like the trip really got going on Day 2.  I found 5 must-sees on this drive starting with – MUST-SEE #1 – Belt.  Belt is a small town that is just a couple miles off US 89 down a winding and scenic road.  It has a great little downtown with a bunch of historic buildings.  Not far past that is MUST-SEE #2 – Sluice Boxes State Park.  Located right on US 89, you can stop off and go for a quick hike in a variety of places for just a couple bucks.  MUST-SEE #3 are the tiny towns of Monarch and Neihart, which are just a few miles from each other.  Monarch is up first and has a dusty main street with a very nicely restored train depot.  I got a tour from the lady who lives across the street – very friendly!  A couple miles down the road, Neihart is considered by some to be a ghost town.  It certainly has some old and crumbling buildings, but there is also plenty of life so it may or may not technically be a ghost town yet, but it is worth stopping and exploring for a bit.  MUST-SEE #4 is only a few more miles past Neihart – Memorial Falls.  You can stretch your legs with a short hike to the falls.  It is not difficult and will take you through several places to take some great pictures.  After some very scenic driving, you will come to MUST-SEE #5 – Wilsall.  I loved this small town of 237 people.  There are a couple of historic places to see on main street and you must go and check out the Bank Bar & Vault Restaurant.  I stayed the night in Livingston and every hotel option was very expensive.  I got lucky to find a room at an Air BnB for $60 but could have easily spent over $200 for somewhere to sleep.

Day 3 – Livingston, MT to Smoot, WY – 283 miles

YouTube video link

Before I talk about the US 89 part of this day’s trip, here is SIDE TRIP #2 for those interested.  I took a one-day detour and drove west for 165 miles to visit several ghost towns including: Bannack, Aldridge, Laurin, Virginia City, and Nevada City.  If you are into ghost town hunting, then this is a one-day side trip you will want to take, and I would advise to stay the night in Dillon and then work your way back to Livingston.  Bannack, Virginia City, and Nevada City are touristy in their own ways, while Aldridge and Laurin are just regular towns with a few historic buildings remaining.  I have done a separate video of Bannack here.  Back to US 89 in Livingston.  This was the longest day of my trip because I could not find anywhere reasonably priced to stay until Smoot, WY.  Jackson is very expensive and there are not many other options until you get to Afton.  MUST-SEE #6 is obvious – Yellowstone National Park.  Even if you do not get out and explore one of the dozens of things to do, the drive is absolutely spectacular.  But you should definitely take the time to explore at least a few of the amazing parts of the park.  After that you will roll right into MUST-SEE #7 – Grand Teton National Park.  It is a shorter drive through Grand Teton than Yellowstone, but it is just as good.  With both national parks, you can stop and explore for days or weeks.  Within Grand Teton National Park is MUST-SEE #8 – Mormon Row Ghost Town.  This collection of buildings from the late 1800’s is just about a mile off US 89 and well worth a quick stop.  I even did a separate video of Mormon Row here.  Once you get through Jackson (which is south of Grand Teton), you will drive through a very scenic part of the trip along the Grand Canyon of the Snake River and into Star Valley.  My next MUST-SEE #9 is the unusual town of Freedom, which is half in Wyoming and half in Idaho.  The main street is actually the border between the two states.  There are also a lot of photogenic old buildings in the town of 214 people.  Not far past freedom is the next SIDE TRIP #3 – Intermittent Springs.  This side trip will not take an entire day as it is just 5 miles off US 89 east of Afton, WY.  This moderately difficult hike will take between 30 minutes to an hour and is definitely worth the time.  I also did a separate video about this hike here.  It is fascinating to see how the spring “breathes” every 10-15 minutes.  To end the day, I probably could have found a hotel in Afton, but I got a great deal on a beautiful Air BnB in Smoot for $62.

Day 4 – Smoot, WY to Ogden, UT – 156 miles

YouTube video link

This day took me through 3 states.  The end of Wyoming from Smoot to the Idaho border is very beautiful through Salt Canyon.  US 89 through Idaho is only 44 miles so it goes fast!  MUST-SEE #10 is the town of Montpelier, ID, which is full of historic and quirky places to visit.  A few miles later in the town of Ovid, ID, is MUST-SEE #11 – an abandoned Mormon Church built in 1896.  Located on private property, but easily seen from US 89, it is one of the most beautiful and haunting buildings on the trip.  At the end of the Idaho section is MUST-SEE #12 – Bear Lake.  Bear Lake is probably the bluest lake you will ever see.  It gets it color from the abundant amount of white-colored calcium carbonate that reflects the water’s natural blue color back to the surface.  Bear Lake is also a state park so if you want to hang out for the day it will cost $15-20.  Once you cross into Utah you will take the beautiful Logan Canyon National Scenic Byway for a bit before entering some more populated areas.  I stayed at another Air BnB in Ogden for $90 that night and had fun exploring the historic downtown district.

Day 5 – Ogden, UT to Salina, UT – 185 miles

The first half of this day was my least favorite part of the entire trip because it was full of larger cities, traffic, and stop lights.  But when there are cities there are usually plenty of things to do and around Salt Lake City are a couple fantastic side trips.  SIDE TRIP #4 is Antelope Island, which is just west of US 89 and will cost $15 to explore.  You can spend a couple hours or a couple days here – very cool place to check out if you have the time.  SIDE TRIP #5 – The Bonneville Salt Flats is 120 miles west of Salt Lake City on I-80.  You can drive your vehicle in the same place many land speed world records have been set.  Do not tell my rental car place, but I drove my SUV 125 mph there!  Besides driving fast, you will be amazed by the vastness of the area.  Back in Salt Lake City there are a couple places near US 89 to check out.  MUST-SEE #13 is Temple Square, the 10 acre complex owned by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and built in the 1850’s.  It is right in the middle of the city, and you can’t miss it as you drive past.  MUST-SEE #14 is also in Salt Lake City and is the very unusual Gilgal Sculpture Garden.  It is free to the public and includes dozens of artistic creations by Thomas Battersby.  In the middle of the busy traffic part of the trip is MUST-SEE #15 – Lehi Roller Mills.  This is one of the locations for filming of the movie Footloose.  It is open to visit (unfortunately closed when I went) and will take you back to the time when Kevin Bacon was tearing it up on the dance floor.  Once you get past Provo the traffic will begin to lessen, and you will start to feel like you are back on the US 89 you originally wanted to explore.  After passing through the Spanish Fork Canyon, you will come upon one of the strangest places on the trip.  MUST-SEE #16 – Thistle Ghost Town.  The town of Thistle was destroyed in a massive landslide in 1983 and now there is hardly anything left except one building that is half above and half below water.  It is a very strange and fascinating place to visit. My YouTube video of Thistle. Next on the list is MUST-SEE #17 – Spring City.  The entire town of Spring City in on the National Register of Historic Places.  You will feel like you have gone back in time while wandering around Spring City, which dates to the 1850’s.  MUST-SEE #18 is the temple in Manti.  As you are approaching this town of 3,276 people, you can’t miss this massive structure where Brigham Young was at the groundbreaking in 1877.  I was not able to go inside but have seen spectacular photos online.  The final stop of the day is at MUST-SEE #19 – The Sanpitch Dragon.  Located in Gunnison, UT, you can take a short walk under US 89 to see a beautiful work of art and hear “the dragon” roar as cars pass overhead.  It is kind of quirky, but very creative and worth stopping for 5 minutes.  I ended this day in Salina and stayed at a very nice Super 8 for $83.

Day 6 – Salina, UT to Kanab, UT – 163 miles

YouTube video link

In my opinion, this is the best part of the trip through Utah.  MUST-SEE #20 is Harv’s Drive-In in the small town of Sigurd (population 429).  While this might not be for everyone, I found Harv’s Drive-In to be one of the most unique places on US 89.  I was not able to stay for a movie, but I heard they had 20 cars the night before to see movies on the smallest outdoor movie screen I have ever seen.  If I ever get back to Sigurd, I will be making a point to stay for a movie night!  30 miles down the road you will come to MUST-SEE #21 – Big Rock Candy Mountain.  This place was made famous by the song of the same name in the movie O Brother, Where Art Thou?  There are areas available for camping and hiking, but the striking colors of the mountains are what is to see here.  Just a few miles later is MUST-SEE #22 – Marysvale.  This town of 408 people is full of historic buildings to explore and is the location for SIDE TRIP #6 – The Canyon of Gold Tour.  You can spend several hours exploring the history of mining in the area and the ghost town of Bullion Canyon on a self-guided tour.  You can also rent an ATV to get through some of the bumpier parts of the tour (I just used my own SUV).  My YouTube video of Bullion City. As you continue 23 miles south, you will see MUST-SEE #23 – Butch Cassidy’s Boyhood Home.  The infamous bank robber’s humble home has been restored and is a free attraction along US 89 that you can explore in just a few minutes.  30 miles later is the fifth national park which is SIDE TRIP #7 – Bryce Canyon National Park.  Bryce Canyon will take at least a few hours to drive to and through.  There are lots of hiking options as well so you can spend several days exploring one of the most spectacular areas in the country.  You can also just drive through an out-and-back main road and hit a bunch of photo ops.  Back on US 89 is MUST-SEE #24 – The Rock Stop in Orderville.  I do not have a lot of businesses on this must-see list, but this unusual building is worth stopping and checking out.  And if you are into rocks then you will love this place.  Just a few miles south of Orderville is the road for SIDE TRIP #8 – Zion National Park.  To think that Zion and Bryce Canyon are so close to each other is unbelievable.  The drive from this side of Zion into the main part of the park is incredible.  Once you are in the park you can take shuttles anywhere you want to explore.  Just like the other national parks, you can spend days or even weeks here.  I did a video of how you can visit both Bryce Canyon and Zion in one day here.  Near the same area just after the road to Zion is MUST SEE #25 – The Belly of the Dragon in Mt Carmel Junction.  It is a manmade tunnel that is a short walk back and forth.  Very unique experience!  The end of this day is a beautiful drive through Three Lakes Canyon into Kanab.  I stayed at Aikens Lodge for $80.  While in Kanab, check out MUST-SEE #26 – Little Hollywood.  This is a collection of old Hollywood sets from westerns filmed in the area.  There is some great history here for movie buffs!  I did a short video of LittleHollywood here.

Day 7 – Kanab, UT to Flagstaff, AZ – 202 miles

At Kanab, you can take one of two different 89’s.  You can take the main US Route 89, which stays in the southern part of Utah, or you can take 89A, which goes straight into Arizona then heads west parallel with 89.  I took 89A, which I believe is a little more scenic than 89.  Also, by taking 89A you can go to SIDE TRIP #9 – Grand Canyon National Park.  This is the North Rim, located when you turn at Jacob Lake.  Obviously, the Grand Canyon is somewhere you can spend all kinds of time exploring and there are multiple entrances around the park.  If you keep heading west on 89A, you will come to SIDE TRIP #10 Vermilion Cliffs National Monument.  I did not visit the Vermilion Cliffs, but I have heard it is spectacular.  I have read you will need a sturdy vehicle and possibly some permits to explore the area.  As you continue to head west on 89A, you will come upon MUST-SEE #27 – Cliff Dwellers.  This is an unusual stop along a beautiful stretch of driving next to the Vermilion Cliffs.  There are some old dwellings built in and around rocks to check out.  Just 8 miles down the road is MUST-SEE #28 – Marble Canyon.  Here you can cross the Navajo Bridge (there are two bridges, one for driving, one for walking) and get some gorgeous views of the canyon.  After this you will reconnect with US Route 89.  I decided to head north to Page and then double back, and it is definitely worth it.  In Page, AZ, you will find MUST-SEE #29 – Glen Canyon Dam.  There are a variety of viewing points and photo ops of both the dam and the canyon in the area.  As you head back south on US 89, stop off at MUST-SEE #30 – Horseshoe Bend Overlook.  It will cost $10 but is worth every penny.  You will take about a one mile walk to the overlook, which is one of the most photographed and spectacular places on the entire trip.  An hour south of Horseshoe Bend is MUST-SEE #31 – Gray Mountain Ghost Town.  This is near the east entrance to the Grand Canyon and worth stopping to see the artistic works on some of the abandoned hotels and buildings.  It is quite extensive!  Just a few miles past Gray Mountain is SIDE TRIP #11 – Wupatki National Monument.  This side trip will take a couple hours to complete as you explore ancient pueblos and participate in guided hikes.  I ended the day in Flagstaff, AZ, where I stayed for free with a friend.  Previously I have stayed at the historic Hotel Monte Vista for $70 when I was traveling on Route 66 (which intersects US 89 in Flagstaff).

Day 8 – Flagstaff, AZ to Wickenburg, AZ – 155 miles

YouTube video link

I started this day with SIDE TRIP #12 – Route 66 Arizona Ghost Towns.  I headed east about 30 miles to a couple of very unique ghost towns.  The first one is Two Guns, AZ, which was basically created as a tourist trap along Route 66.  There are plenty of abandoned and crumbling structures to see and you can also walk down into the Apache Death Cave (if you are adventurous).  Just a couple miles west is Twin Arrows, which also has some abandoned structures (with lots of graffiti) to check out.  Back in Flagstaff you can take two different routes on US 89.  I took the more scenic 89A towards Sedona, but you can also take the main US 89 west before it heads south into the Chino Valley.  The 30 mile drive from Flagstaff to MUST-SEE #32 – Sedona, is very winding, twisting, and spectacular.  Once in Sedona you have a multitude of options from exploring the touristy downtown area to various hiking and nature activities.  As the road continues to twist and turn another 25 miles, you will head into MUST-SEE #33 – Jerome.  Jerome could be considered a ghost town because it is much smaller than it used to be, but it is still very lively with lots of old buildings to explore and plenty of businesses still up and running as it sits in the Black Hills.  A few miles past Jerome, the road begins to level out and the rest of the day is spent cruising through small towns and communities. I stayed the night in Wickenburg, AZ, at the Log Cabin Motel for $75. Wickenburg has a lot of historic places to explore as well.

Day 9 – Wickenburg, AZ to Tucson, AZ – 197 miles

At this point, most of the spectacular scenery is behind you, but there is still a lot of interesting things ahead.  As you start to enter the Phoenix metropolitan area, you could explore SIDE TRIP #13 – Baseball Parks.  There are 15 Major League Baseball teams that use this area for spring training.  I stopped off in Surprise and Goodyear to see four of them.  All these parks are smaller than major league stadiums, so they are much more accessible to the general public.  Once you get through the concrete jungle of Phoenix, it opens back up and you can head to the next MUST SEE #34 – Casa Grande Ruins National Monument.  Built between 600-900 years ago, you can check out this impressive monument that was the center of an agricultural community.  Once again you can get in free with the National Park Pass.  From there you will have a fairly uneventful drive towards Tucson but can certainly make it more interesting by doing SIDE TRIP #14 – Saguaro National Park.  This is the seventh and final national park on the trip.  It is divided into two parts east and west of Tucson and gives you a unique perspective on life in the desert.  I stayed the night near Oro Valley (north of Tucson) at the White Stallion Ranch for $154.  I decided to spend a few extra dollars to experience a different kind of overnight accommodation and I would highly recommend it for anyone traveling with a family.

Day 10 – Tucson, AZ to Nogales, AZ/Mexico – 83 miles

Even though the final day is the shortest, there are a lot of interesting places to check out before arriving to the Mexican border.  A few miles past Tucson, make sure to stop at MUST-SEE #35 – San Xavier del bac Mission, the oldest Spanish Colonial structure in Arizona – built in the 18th century.  It is free to the public.  About 35 miles further down US 89 you can stop at MUST-SEE #36 – Tubac.  This historic town is a mix of old buildings and lots of newer shopping areas.  Just past Tubac is MUST-SEE #37 – Tumacacori National Historic Park.  Use your National Park Pass to get in to explore the ruins of Mission San Jose, built in 1691.  From here you are only 20 miles from Mexico which is MUST-SEE #38 – Walk over the border in Nogales into Mexico.  You can park your car for $5 near the border (drive up and ask the border agents if you can’t find parking), and then make the short walk over the border into Nogales, Mexico.  You can spend the day or just take a quick picture and head back into Arizona.  No one is checking when you walk into Mexico, but there will be a line to come back to the USA, where you will need to show ID and answer a variety of questions about your trip.  It took me about 30 minutes to get back once I crossed into Mexico.  Now that the trip is over, there are still a couple places I recommend seeing.  No matter your political views, I think you should go to MUST-SEE #39 – the border wall.  On the east side of Nogales, you can find the small and dusty Border Road and drive a couple miles along the wall between Arizona and Mexico.  You will see border agents all along the dirt road in their vehicles, but don’t worry, it is a public road anyone can travel up and down.  After this incredible trip from Canada to Mexico, the feeling of standing by the wall is surreal.  I felt a deep appreciation for my freedoms to have been able to take this adventure.  It felt like a perfect way to end the trip.  While the US 89 portion of the trip was over, I did take one excursion as SIDE TRIP #15 – Tombstone.  70 miles east on a fairly scenic part of US 82, you can visit the mother of all Wild West towns.  Tombstone is a fraction of the size it used to be, but it is filled with things to do to take you back to the days of Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday.  A few miles away is also the ghost town of Fairbank, which is worth at stop on the way to Tombstone.  Here is a video I made of my night in the legendary town!

Conclusion/Final Thoughts

YouTube video link

I stayed in Tombstone on the last night and enjoyed socializing with the locals late into the night.  The next day I drove back to Tucson and flew home to Kansas.  I have now done both Route 66 and US 89 and can say that both are very memorable.  Route 66 is for nostalgia with a little bit of scenic views, while US 89 is the opposite – tons of spectacular sights with some remnants of old businesses and buildings along the way.  I think US 89 is very underrated and I highly recommend it for anyone feeling adventurous!  If you have any questions that is not covered in this guide or on my YouTube videos, do not hesitate to email me at jwise@goshockers.com.  Thanks, and happy travels!

What is a ghost town and why do I love them so much?

If you’ve been following my travel videos, you’ve probably noticed I seem to enjoy what is often referred to as a “ghost town”.

What is a ghost town exactly?  Well, it’s not necessarily a place filled with ghosts.  It could have some places that feel like they’re haunted, but it’s more about somewhere that is abandoned or nearly to that point. 

In my opinion, a ghost town usually falls into one of 3 categories:

--A place that is a shadow of its former self (maybe 20% or less of what it used to be).  This could be a town that used to have 1,000 people and now has 100.

--A place that has a few structures left and only a few people living in the area.  Usually, these areas used to be small towns and are now unincorporated.

--A place that is totally abandoned, having virtually nothing left, and usually aren’t on maps anymore.

The first town I made a YouTube video of was the mother of all ghost towns – Picher, Oklahoma.  It was abandoned because it wasn’t safe to live there anymore due to contamination.  It was abandoned relatively recently so much of the town is left in remains.  If you haven’t seen that video, I encourage you to check it out here:  Picher, Oklahoma

After I made that video, I started thinking about where else I could explore.

I grew up in a very rural area of southern Ohio and didn’t realize I lived near many ghost towns.  As our society advances, more people move to the cities and less people live in these communities.  As I learn about many of the places I visit, I find that the average age of people living there is much higher than normal.  Younger people are not generally moving into these towns, and as the older generation passes, the towns will eventually disappear.

It’s really no one’s fault.  People tend to live where the jobs are, and bigger cities have more job opportunities nowadays.  But it is sad to see these once proud and busy communities fade away.  That’s one of the reasons I have been trying to document as many as I can before they are no longer there.  I also love to find old buildings and imagine what the downtown areas looked like in their heyday.  Every one of these small towns has a history and a story to tell.

While there are ghost towns all around the country, Kansas seems to be the capital of ghost towns.  This is because in the frontier days settlers would head west in search of land an opportunity and, often, Kansas would be as far as they would get.  The extremes of weather and missed opportunities of business would be major factors for a young town to quickly disappear.  The dangers of encroaching upon Native American lands were constant as well.  Another reason for the frequent failure of a town would be the railroad.  People would start a town in hopes the railroad would pass through, and if it didn’t, the town would up and move to another location along where the tracks were laid.

The pioneering spirit is very interesting to me now that I live in Kansas.  Imaging these settlers packing up their lives into a wagon and heading into the unknown is fascinating.  And to see evidence of their efforts still around today is even more interesting.  In 50 years, most of these places won’t be around anymore so I’m trying to see as many as I can while I can.

If you’ve made it this far then you must be somewhat interested in the topic as well.  Here is a list of towns I have made videos of and then ones I am planning to make videos of in the future (this means I already filmed them, I just haven’t edited them yet).

I’ve made 12 videos about 34 “ghost towns” so far:

-Picher, OK

-Treece, KS

-Douthat, Cardin, Zincville, Hockerville, OK

-Joyland, Wichita, KS (not a town but an abandoned amusement park)

-Trousdale, Hopewell, Byers, Zenith, KS

-Lerado, Castleton, Marshall, Waterloo, KS

-Peterton, Miller, Arvonia, Silkville, KS

-Arrington, Kennekuk, Padonia, White Cloud, KS

-Levanna, Utopia, Point Pleasant, OH

-De La Palma, Murrays Corner, New Hope, Liberty, OH

-Mormon Row, UT

-Iowa Point, Eagle Springs, Bendena, KS (to be released Sept 23)

 To watch any of these videos you can go to my YouTube page here: https://www.youtube.com/Travelwithawiseguy

I’m planning on making the following 8 videos over the next few months

-(Kansas) Geary City, Doniphan, Kickapoo, Hickory Point

-(Montana) Bannack, Laurin, Virginia City, Nevada City

-(Montana) Fort Shaw, Old Chico, Aldridge, Jardine

-(Colorado) Alma, Buckskin Joe, South Park, Como, Boreas

-(Arizona) Fairbank, Tombstone

-(Arizona) Gray Mountain, Two Guns, Twin Arrows

-(Utah) Thistle, Bullion Canyon, Johnson Canyon

-(Ohio) Spann, Lucy Run, Elk Lick

 

I’ve made a lot of different kinds of videos in the past year on my YouTube channel, but these are my favorites.  I know they’re not always the most popular, but they are the most fun for me to do.  Hopefully some of you have learned something new as well!

 If you keep watching, I’ll keep making them.  And if you stop watching … I’ll probably keep making them anyways :)

 

One of my videos got chosen for a film festival! Here's the story ...

My video of the smallest towns in Kansas got picked to be in the No Coast Film Festival on September 18, in Emporia, Kansas.

I can’t believe it either haha.

It wouldn’t have happened without my buddy Curt Rierson (WSUtv) encouraging me to submit it to the Tallgrass Film Festival.  There is a website to use to submit your film to a variety of festivals around the world and when I went on there to submit it to Tallgrass, I noticed the No Coast Film Festival up the road in Emporia.  I thought, what the heck, might as well submit it there too.

I haven’t heard back from Tallgrass and wasn’t expecting to hear back from No Coast either.  The NCCF is a festival of 88 short films (less than 30 minutes) that will play over 3 days (Sept 17-19) in the historic Emporia Granada Theater.  Mine will be playing on Saturday at 12:49pm as part of 10 films in the documentary category.  It is slated to go after a film about the struggles of a young garter snake and right before a film about pollution in Iran.

Needless to say, I will be out of my element.  But I am certainly honored to have been chosen to be part of the festival!

Most of the other 87 films being shown are by real filmmakers.  Me, on the other hand, filmed and edited everything on my phone.  A lot of these other films had a budget.  My budget was whatever gas money cost and one night in a shady hotel in the middle of Kansas.  I’m sure most of these filmmakers have their movies secured in a safe place to keep anything from happening to it.  In my wisdom, I purposely deleted the original off my phone to make room to film my summer road trip and had to download it off YouTube just to submit it to the festival for the final showing.

I tried really hard when I was working on this video and my main goal was to hope if someone from one of these small towns saw it, they would be appreciative.  I think that goal was attained.  However, I never imagined my face might be on the big screen for 24 minutes.  Not excited about THAT.  I think most people probably watch my videos on their phone or a laptop … alone.  I’m not sure what it will be like to watch it with a theater full of people expecting to be entertained. 

I plan to spend the entire weekend in Emporia taking in all aspects of the festival from the Friday night social/mixer with other filmmakers to the awards ceremony on Sunday night.  There is a (very) good chance this will be the only film festival I am ever part of, so I want to soak it all in.  I think I will try to document it and make a YouTube video of the experience.  I’m sure it will yield plenty of comedy at my expense.

If you want to know more about the festival check it out here: https://www.nocoastfilmfest.com/

And if you don’t have anything to do on September 18 at 12:49pm, I would appreciate you stopping by Emporia to take in the show and laughing loudly at anything remotely funny and giving it a standing ovation afterwards (just kidding).  After the documentaries are over, I will buy everyone a drink at the nearest watering hole!

Thanks again to the staff of the No Coast Film Festival for allowing a track coach with a passion for traveling into your world.  Proud and excited to be part of it!

Travel update - YouTube videos I'm planning on releasing in the coming months

Travel with a Wiseguy on YouTube

Since my last blog post I have released four videos: Ohio Ghost Towns Parts 1 and 2, Hiking to the Wichita State Plane Crash Site, and a drone video compilation from my trip on US Route 89.

It was a lot of fun to go back home to southern Ohio and explore with my brother some of the places where we grew up.  As a kid you really have no idea of the history around you and don’t appreciate it until much later in life.  I am hoping to do some more exploring the next time I’m “home”.

The video about the WSU plane crash site hike seemed to really connect with a lot of people.  Besides it being one of the more popular videos I’ve released, I’ve received a bunch of nice messages either as comments on the video or personal ones from people who’ve been to the site, planned on going, or didn’t even know it existed.  I’m glad I was able to do it and happy so many people found the video informative.

The drone footage from US Route 89 is just the first of several videos I will be releasing about my 1800 mile trek from Canada to Mexico.  I think it shows how spectacular some of the areas US 89 traverses, even though the video doesn’t do it justice from experiencing the real thing.

So, since you clicked on this blog, and have continued reading this far, you must be somewhat interested in what I am doing with these videos.  For those of you diehards (that I can probably count on one hand haha), here are a bunch of videos I have already filmed this summer and plan on releasing throughout the fall.  With my job getting busy, I won’t have as much time to travel in the next few months and had to get ahead of the game to keep my streak of releasing a new video each week.  Here are videos, in no particular order, that I hope to put out in the next 3-4 months …

--Individual US Route 89 videos on Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Utah, and Arizona – similar to what I did for Route 66 last year.  Montana’s video is done and will be released Thursday (15 minutes long).

--In conjunction with the Wyoming and Utah videos, I’ll be releasing other videos that are “off shoots” from US 89 in those states.  For the Wyoming video, I’ll put links on the main video for a ghost town in the Grand Tetons and a hike I did in the southern part of the state.  For Utah, I explored (might have broken in) Little Hollywood in Kanab.  These videos will be different than my normal videos – more of a raw footage type thing.

--I’m going to put together a video of driving through both Bryce Canyon and Zion National Parks.

--I have two more Kansas ghost town videos (parts 5 and 6).

--On my road trip I explored lots of ghost towns along the way.  I am hoping to put together videos of them in Montana (2 videos), Utah (1 video), and Arizona (2 videos).

--I also took a day and explored some Colorado ghost towns after my hike to the WSU plane crash site.

--From way back to last year, when I road tripped on Route 66, I took photos of every town welcome sign I could find.  I thought this might be a unique video for fans of the Mother Road.

--I have one more Ohio ghost town video filmed.  Not sure how happy I was with it, but maybe when I start to edit it’ll come together.

--I filmed drone videos of the Kansas towns of Pratt (population 6,703) and Holton (population 3,237) much like I did for Wichita.  If I get motivated, I would like to release those.  I had a plan to do a whole bunch of cities I visited, but I would be very tired in the evenings and want to sleep instead of flying a drone around in the dark.  But I think the Pratt video will be pretty cool.

I have three other videos I would like to try and film this fall.  I have been thinking about a video about Wichita’s Union Terminal Station.  There is a lot of history there and you can explore everything in the area very easily.  As a racing fan, I was thinking it would be fun to go on a weekend of traveling to different small town dirt racetracks.  Maybe a 3 day weekend type thing if I can figure out the schedule.  The other video I want to do is the top-10 smallest towns in Oklahoma.  The one I did of Kansas was very enjoyable for me, and it is one of the most popular videos (and the longest) I’ve released.  In fact, I would like to do two states per year.  I could almost finish the project by the time I turn 70!

As for the YouTube channel, I’m right at 700 subscribers (need 1000 to monetize).  Last week it got over 3,800 views – which is the best week since I started it in the summer of 2020.

Anyways, there’s the “way too much info” update about my travels and YouTube channel.  Thanks for the support!

One year of YouTube videos, what I learned, what's next!

 Travel with a Wiseguy update

Previously, this blog was for me to discuss track and movies, but since I have not posted in forever, I thought I would use it to talk about my travels.  I still write a bunch about Wichita State Track and Field almost every Sunday in a weekly newsletter (email me at jwise@goshockers.com if you want to be added to the mailing list).  And I am still watching a lot of movies (if you are a friend on Snapchat, you are well aware haha).

I started my YouTube travel channel one year ago.  Since then, I have now uploaded 52 videos and reached my original goal of posting a video each week for a year, I figured this was a good time to talk about this “journey”.

Year one of creating a YouTube channel

The first year of creating these videos have been 1) a lot of fun, 2) very challenging, and 3) very rewarding.  I had thought about doing something like this for a long time, but actually committing to it was tough because certain parts of my year are super busy.  But with the encouragement and guidance of Curt Rierson, the super talented and accomplished Emmy Award-winning producer for WSUtv, I decided to start the channel.

I have a bit of experience with shooting and editing video from my years as a track coach and athlete (and amateur videos with the family camcorder as a kid), but this was a different endeavor.  I had stockpiled some footage of my trip to South America in 2019 and I did a video about the beginning of the trip (that I never published) to see if I could pull it off.  Curt was very supportive even though it is not that great of a video, and his best advice was to just keep “getting reps”.  I have come a long way since and if you want to see that early unlisted video you can find it under the South America playlist on my YouTube channel.  --> South America playlist

After that, I put up a short intro video and announced that I was going to try to do a weekly post of my travels.  That first video got great support from friends.  I picked up about 50 subscribers to the channel and at that point I felt committed.  The first real video I did was of a week-long trip around the Rocky Mountains.  I really did not know what I was doing in terms of filming and speaking into the camera (which was awkward).  When I got home and started putting it together, I started to figure it out and got a jolt of excitement that it was not the worst video ever made.  I almost exclusively used the iMovie application on my phone (which is fantastic) and found the editing process was a lot of fun.  I did a couple videos on Adobe Premiere because the film was pulled off a video camera in 2019, but other than the South America videos, everything else has been done exclusively on my phone.  I look back at the early videos and shake my head at the typos and other goofy things I did.  But I kept getting weekly reps and started getting better at filming and editing.  And more importantly, I kept forcing myself to do a video each week.

In the past year, because of Covid restrictions, I have had to stay in the USA and find new places I have never been.  I did the entire Route 66 in two weeks and the videos seemed to catch on reasonably well for a new channel.  It seems those videos are the ones that consistently get views each day and I have made friends from all over the world who somehow stumbled across the series. --> Route 66 playlist

Doing a video each week has definitely been a challenge, especially with having a full-time job as a track coach at Wichita State.  The reason I started doing the goofy slushie reviews was because I knew I would not be able to travel enough to do a weekly video.  Those have been a lot of fun and it has been a blast showing people the humorous side of my friends from work.  I think the slushie reviews will be retired for the time being.  Maybe I will have one here and there in the future.  Sorry to the slushie diehards! --> Slushie review playlist

Statistical summary of Year 1

If you know me, you know I love numbers.  So, here are some numbers from Year 1 of Travel with a Wiseguy (as of July 11):

623 Subscribers

64,399 Total views of the 51 videos (Avg 1,262)

7 Hours and 27 minutes of published videos (Avg 8:45)

1,364 most views in one day – April 18, 2021 (after I posted the Joyland video)

3,394 most views in one week – April 18-24, 2021 (Avg 485/day)

9,884 most views in one month – April 2021 (Avg 329/day)

7,423 watch hours (amount of total hours people have watched on the channel)

Most watched video – Route 66 Arizona, 4,024 views

Top 5 countries that have viewed videos other than the USA: UK, Mexico, Canada, France, Netherlands

51% of views are from the 35-44 age group

63% male/37% female

$100 earned (see FAQ below)

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Where is the most favorite place you have ever traveled?

That is tough to answer, but I usually go with Easter Island, and that is why I did that as one of the first videos on my channel.  Iceland and New Zealand were incredible too.  But honestly, I have thoroughly enjoyed every country I have visited. --> Easter Island video

What international trips do you still want to do?

Basically everywhere.  But if I am making a priority list it would include:  Africa, Antarctica, island hopping through the Caribbean, Greenland, Norway/Sweden/Finland, Galapagos Islands, Egypt, and Seychelles. The only states I have not been to in the USA are Alaska and Hawaii (I plan to visit those within the next 4 years).

What has been your most favorite small town you have visited in the past year?

The favorite one I visited that is not a town anymore was Picher, Oklahoma.  There are literally zero people living there in a city that used to have around a population of 15,000.  The feeling of wandering around a place full of buildings that is completely deserted was very eerie to say the least.  It makes me want to visit some of the other places in the world that have been totally abandoned.  If you are in to things like that and live close by, Picher should definitely be on your list of places to explore.  If you are wondering why it is abandoned and did not see my video check it out here --> Picher, Oklahoma video

 In terms of places that still have people living there, it is hard to pick between White Cloud and Arvonia (both in Kansas).  White Cloud, which is way up in the northeast corner of Kansas, has done a great job of maintaining a lot of the old buildings without making it "touristy" and the entire downtown in on the National Registry of Historic Places.  You can also see 4 states from atop a scenic overlook and boat down the Missouri River.  Arvonia and its 12 inhabitants have also worked hard to restore the local buildings to what they probably looked like 150 years ago.  If you stop by you might even get a personal tour of the place. --> White Cloud video  --> Arvonia video

What is your favorite video you have created?

That is very difficult to answer.  The slushie videos are always fun (especially the one with my brother).  The two videos I am most proud of are Picher (mentioned above) and the Top-10 Smallest Towns in Kansas.  I wanted both of those videos to come off well to the people who are from there, and I have received so many positive messages about them.  Hopefully, they are videos that will continue to get views from people that enjoy them.  The Route 66 trip through Arizona would be a close third.

--> Top-10 Smallest Towns in Kansas video --> Route 66 Arizona 

What are some trips you are planning for in the upcoming year?

There are so many trips I want to do but I do not have the time (or money).  Like my previous trip on Route 66, I am going to drive Route 89 from Canada to Mexico.  It will be through the states of Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Utah, and Arizona.  National Geographic says it is the most scenic drive in the world.  I am not sure of that, but it sounds like it could be pretty epic.  I am going to continue to explore ghost towns in Kansas, but I am planning on doing some of those type videos in other states as well (possibly Ohio, Colorado, Oklahoma, Montana, Arizona – maybe more).  I want to document a weekend in the Flint Hills of Kansas.  I would like to spend a couple days going to dirt track speedways and showing what it is like behind the scenes at these local race tracks.  I have an idea about a video about Wichita’s historic Union Terminal Station.  I am hoping to visit the site of the Wichita State Football plane crash from 1970, located in the mountains west of Denver.  I wanted to take a week-long road trip around the state of Texas going to a different country music concert each night and visiting small towns along the way (it does not look like that one is happening this year).  I thought a video of a coach going on a recruiting trip might be interesting to some (although there are lots of NCAA rules you have to deal with doing a video like that).  Literally, I have 20+ more ideas like this in my head.

How much money do you make?

So far it is a grand total of $100 haha.  A significantly more popular YouTuber contacted me about using a few of my videos in one he was making.  But that has been it.  The way monetization works on YouTube is from meeting 2 requirements: 1) 1000 subscribers and 2) 4000 watch hours in the past 12 months.  The 4000 watch hours happened quickly, but getting 1000 subscribers has not.  I am almost two-thirds there so, theoretically, that should happen in the next year if I keep this going.  But, once you get to those requirements, you are not going to get rich.  In fact, I have heard it is basically pocket change at first.  I never intended to try and make money off this when I started, but maybe someday it can be something to help pay for some gas or a hotel or something.  I follow other YouTubers who talk about a variety of ways to make money, but I am not anywhere near trying to do that since my main focus is coaching at WSU.

What advice would you give someone wanting to start their own YouTube channel?

By no means am I an expert on this topic.  But in my limited experience I would say the most important thing is to do it for you.  Do not start it with the goal of making money because the chances are you will never make a penny.  But if you do it for you, you will end up with a bunch of fantastic memories that are there to watch whenever you want, even if no one else is particularly interested.  The second piece of advice is what my buddy Curt told me, which was to just keep making videos.  That is the only way you will get better.  Give yourself a deadline and force yourself to meet it each time. Other than that, just have fun with it.  Life is too short.  If you are thinking about it, just go ahead and do it.  I wish I would have a long time ago!

What is the future of your channel?

Lately I have started visiting and doing a lot of videos on small towns and abandoned places, and I think this is where my channel will eventually go in the future more and more.  I really enjoy getting in my car for a couple days on the weekend and exploring these relatively unknown and rarely visited places.  I still plan to do a lot of other types of videos too, but I would imagine 50% of them will fall in the small town/abandoned places genre.  I am excited to do some more road trip videos like I did with Route 66.  I have done three videos of trips with our track team and those are very difficult to pull off with trying to coach at the same time.  I am glad I did them, just not sure how many more I will do in the future.

I started an Instagram account that is solely about my travels at Travel_Wiseguy.  If you want to follow where I go, I will be posting there on a more frequent basis than anywhere else.

Thank you!

Thank you to everyone who has been supportive of this endeavor during the past year.  It has been a terrific distraction from a frustrating year overall (yeah I’m talking about you Covid).  Since I am still enjoying this, I plan to continue posting weekly videos on into 2022. Hopefully, you have enjoyed something from a few of the videos, whether it be historical facts, Shocker Track & Field details, or what flavor of slushie is the best.  Thanks again!

Below are some articles written about my channel this year. 

Wichita State News - Paul Suellentrop

Route 66 News

Roberto Rossi interview (Italy)

 

Where did I go for the past 5 months?

Well it certainly has been a while since I’ve blogged.  I appreciate the concern about why I’ve stopped.  There are five main reasons why I've been MIA.

1 – The last blogging I was doing was about the most inspirational people in my life.  I was really enjoying that but eventually it ran into really, really busy time of the year for me and something had to give.  I hope to pick that project up again sometime because there are certainly a lot of people in my life I want to give credit to.  Once I lost the rhythm of writing those stories every week it has been hard to get motivated to start back up.  I’m sure I will get that going again.

2 – I also did quite a bit of traveling this summer, most memorably a trip to Iceland for a couple weeks, and I just wanted to unplug for a while.  I did put some videos/pics on Twitter of that trip so if you wanna see some incredible stuff it’s out there.  If you want to get away from it all, I recommend a trip to Iceland.  It’s not that far away and you’ll be amazed that a place like that exists on this planet.

3 – And now that the school year has started back up I’m busy with the regular grind of the year.  I’m sure I will get back to some regular blogging but, if/when I do, I want to make sure it’s original and interesting to read.

4 – I write a weekly email that is very blog-like about our track and field team.  If you want on that list just email me at jwise@goshockers.com and I’ll put you on the list.

5 – I tend to get lazy sometimes. 

In case you’re curious, I still watch a lot of movies (currently going alphabetically through all 481 dvd’s I own on a nightly basis).  I am the host of a new online show about our track team called On Pace.  I’m super excited about the 2017-18 track season and our first year in the American Conference (Outdoor Championships back near home in Cincinnati in May!).

My mom had to evacuate her home in Florida for Hurricane Irma.  But as she said, “Don’t worry about me, I’ve been through this before and know what to do.”  It’s the same thing when people ask me about tornadoes in Kansas! 

I’m not sure what or when I’ll blog again but I’m sure I’ll get back to it soon!  Until then you’ll have to settle for following me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, SnapChat, text or, ya know, just talk to me in person.

Thanks and Go Shocks!

People that inspire me - Jim Wise

There are 38 weeks left in the year and once a week I will write about someone in my life that is inspiring or motivating to me.  Hopefully others will read it and gain a little bit of inspiration in their life as well.  There is no particular order to these writings, just a bunch of people I am fortunate enough to know.  So without further ado ….

Inspirational person #13 of 50 – Jim Wise

Jim Wise is my older brother.

Jim in the middle

I have two brothers that are 8 and 9 years older than me so being the youngest was not always easy.  And my older brothers did the normal things to me that siblings would do in terms of picking on me and giving me a hard time but as I grew up Jim started to pick on me less and support me more.  And to this day I don’t have anyone that is as supportive as him.

To be around Jim is to be constantly laughing and entertained.  He has a very outgoing personality and is usually the center of attention whenever we have a family get together.  He can take an everyday, ordinary story and turn it into a standup comedy routine.  He is one of those people you just like to be around because you know something funny or memorable will happen.

Our family has always been into all kinds of motorsports and Jim was no different.  While I was more into the go-kart type racing he was more into motorcycles.  I can remember watching both of my brothers at a young age riding around our farm on their motorbikes and wanting to follow their footsteps in some fashion.  Eventually Jim would drag race Harley Davidson’s and win several races and trophies. 

As I got into high school and more into team sports, Jim would often show up and be one of my biggest fans.  I didn’t tell him at the time but it really meant a lot to see him take time from his busy schedule to travel to one of my games or meets.

At a young age he began working construction and has worked his way up the ranks through his company for the past 30+ years.  He is an extremely hard working and dedicated professional and his fingerprints are on building projects all over state of Ohio and city of Cincinnati.  I imagine when he retires he will have a great sense of pride in all that he has accomplished in his work life.

More about Jim below but first …

I asked Jim seven questions, here are his responses …

Question 1:  What advice I would I give the 15-year-old version of yourself?

Jim: 1) Listen to your parents they know what is best for you! 2) Be careful on who you pick as friends because they can have a big influence on some of the decisions you might chose to make. 3) Do not let people influence you to make bad decisions 4) Stay in school, go to college so you don’t have to work manual labor (Like I have for 30 years).

Question 2:  If money was no option, what would you do for the rest of your life?

Jim:  I would spend the money helping the less fortunate, so they could have a better life. I would also make sure that my mother could go anywhere and have anything that her heart desired even though she could do that on her own. But Hey, I love my mom! I would also provide the money to build the world’s largest dog shelter and pay the staff a good wage to run / operate it. Then my wife and I could then travel the world helping people, and rescuing dogs.

Question 3:  What is your favorite non-work thing to do?

Jim:  After 30 years of hard work my favorite thing to do is take it easy, besides that I like to travel to Florida when I’m off in the winter to spend time with my mother and wonderful family Debbie, Rocky, John and Colton!

Question 4:  If your life was a movie, what would the title be and who would play you?

Jim:  The Wild Adventures of Jimmy Wise. I would pick Evel Knievel to play me.

Question 5:  What one thing would you change about society?

Jim:  I would like to change how society judges people when they don’t know the whole story or have walked in that person’s shoes.

Question 6:  Who inspires you and why?

Jim:  My younger brother John Wise. From a young age, John exceled at anything he did. He started racing go go-karts, and became the Jeff Gordon of go-kart racing winning many races. As you might already know many of the kids he raced against went on to become NASCAR and IndyCar drivers. My Brother went on to win the 1992 400m state championship in the state of Ohio. He then went to Kent State University on a track scholarship where he graduated with a degree in business management. John was also named to the all-Mid-American Conference team as a sprinter in 1997-1998. John also was part of the MAC Championship and the 4x100m relay team. After college John joined the Kent State staff serving under current Shockers coach Steve Rainbolt for five seasons. John later returned to Eastern Brown for three seasons as the head coach and won the Conference Coach of the Year five times in track and twice in cross country. John later moved to Kansas to become a Track coach for the Wichita State Shockers and in 2011, he was promoted to Assistant Director of Track and Field that goes along with his coaching and recruiting roles. My brother is someone who loves what he does for a living. He goes to work every day and does what he loves. John could have any job he chooses, yet he loves coaching and teaching these young adults how to become better athletes and outstanding young adults. Therefore, he inspires me! I’m so proud to call him my brother! When people ask me who he is I love to tell them this story. I’m so proud of you John!

Question 7:  What makes you laugh?

Jim:  Facebook! Funnier than Monty Python and Benny Hill!

Final thoughts … Why is Jim Wise inspirational to me?

I’m realizing it’s impossible to accurately describe Jim on paper.  If you really want to know about Jim, you have to experience being with and around him.

But what I can definitely say with all sincerity is that Jim has one of the biggest hearts a human being was ever given.  You can read some of that above in his answers but something that isn’t mentioned is how he took in our nephew Colton and, along with his wife Debbie, has helped raise him into young adulthood.  This wasn’t something Jim signed up for but it was a responsibility he took as seriously as anything he’s ever done in life.

 

Our nephew Colton is now in college and one of the smartest young people you could ever meet.  While Jim may not have gone to college or earned a master’s degree, he is a graduate of the school of hard knocks and made sure Colton had everything he needed to start a successful life of his own.  I’m not sure I could’ve done the same thing as Jim and Debbie because I’m probably much too selfish with my own life.  We’re all lucky to have people like Jim in our world.

You don’t choose your siblings.  Sometimes your brother or sister is the closest person to you in your life and sometimes it doesn’t work out that way.  I think my relationship with my brother Jimmy has had a little bit of everything and I feel extremely lucky for that.  Life isn’t perfect and neither are all the people in it.  Jim has made mistakes like all of us have, but unlike some people he has never blamed anyone else for his lot in life and has always continued to strive and work hard to make it better for him and the people around him.  Sometimes we are inspired by professional athletes, leaders in the business world or successful academic types but more often than not there are people like my brother Jim who does the real heavy lifting in life so the rest of us can live a little easier.

Thank you Jim for being a great example for Colton and for being the best big brother a little spoiled punk like me could ever have!